Mages/Locks in PVE

Joy

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Aug 26, 2005
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Thought this was a good post on how warlocks and mages relate in PVE currently. By (EU) Forte, Warlock.

Warlocks in PVE
-----------------------

So let's sum it up.

Warlocks have more hp than other classes.
Warlocks do more damage than other classes.
Add one more warlock to the raid and the dmg from all the warlocks increase.
Warlocks give multiple raidboosting debuffs.
Warlocks need a bit of heals to do damage - give them a shadowpriest and problem solved.

I'm honestly ashamed of playing my class at the moment. Sure I'm #1 or #2 on damage meters all the time (competing with other locks), but the competition is just non-existant. How fun is it that I can crit for 9k+ with a shadowbolt (2.5sec cast) when mages crit for 5k with a (3sec cast) fireball. My guild raids with 5 warlocks and 2 mages. If there was no sheepable trash we would probably not bring any mages at all. So far I have NEVER seen another class than a warlock on top of damage in any given fight in TBC.
I never liked the debuffer - bring two locks for cos and coe - situation warlocks had before The Burning Crusade but currently it's just hilarious. A warlock can make the boss hit for 5% less, Take 10% (and the lowered resistance) more dmg from frost, shadow, fire and arcane damage, and around 8% more from melee damage, and giving your group 1k more health, while still being on the absolute top of damage meters.

I feel sorry for our mages. Making Al'ar fire-immune and forcing them to respec every week doesn't make things much brighter. Remaining frost or arcane for the other bosses just doesn't seem like a reasonable option at the moment. I'm fully firespecced myself and do 100% firedamage in a normal raid, but on Al'ar I end up #1 or #2 spamming shadowbolts with the very same talents. Fair? No.

I'm bored playing my warlock, getting everything for granted, ending up top on damage with my eyes closed. I rolled the class a year ago because I thought it would offer some challenge in terms of pet controll and.... hate to admit it.... dominate in pvp, while still being an enjoyable damageclass to play in raiding dungeons. I was proud when I reached high on meters in Naxxramas, proud to the point that I actually took screenshots every time I beat a mage in damage. Sadly there were some problems with the class in naxxramas aswell, for example the threat wall that stopped us from ever really doing the damage we had potential to output. I remember myself saying that a ring with +500 spelldmg wouldn't improve my damage, while a ring with solely -1% threat would.

I like the idea of my spec (0 / 21 / 40), sacrificing all debuffing and raidbuffing for the sake of damage, and it is my personal belief that a warlock speccing my way should be able to compete on the top of the damage meters. The current situation is that any warlock will end up top5 on meters, no matter the spec. This has to be "tuned". A warlock functioning as a debuffer / buffer should not be able to outperform other classes in pure dps. Reducing the damage our dots do, and reducing the amount gained through Shadow and Flame to 10% or 15% would be one out of many ways of solving the issue, and it would probably be a welcome change to pvp (obviously not by most affliction warlocks).

Since I'm not a friend of nerfing I'd rather see other classes, especially mages getting buffed to do comparable damage, preferably more, than a warlock. We ran a competition on Dr.Boom with a fellow mage, and even though he could keep on dps:ing while I was standing out of health / mana, having used a healthstone and bandage, I still ended up doing a lot more damage. With no potions, and only curse of elements and improved scorch up, I could output 1400 dps on Dr.Boom until I was fully out of health and mana, while the mage reached around 950 dps at his best attempt.
We then switched characters (we were at a LAN), and ended up with me doing 850dps on the mage, and my friend doing 1200 dps on my warlock. Our gear is equal.
Please make mages more usefull in pve, because currently they're as fragile as a feather, and don't do damage that is comparable to a warlock's.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=98895378&sid=1
 

Ayu

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Aug 26, 2005
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Joyae said:
The current situation is that any warlock will end up top5 on meters, no matter the spec. This has to be "tuned". A warlock functioning as a debuffer / buffer should not be able to outperform other classes in pure dps.

I wonder if he ever heard of "Warriors". Warrior>Warlock buffs and they do awesome damage as well.
I think the real problem is the Spriest/Lock synergy, it seems way too good. :S
 
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Joy

Joy

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They're not better, and warriors don't share the warlock spots usually.
 

Ayu

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Joyae said:
They're not better, and warriors don't share the warlock spots usually.

For melee classes, Warriors debuffs/buffs are definitely better just counting DPS increase from Sunder Armor and BS. Improved Demo also blows CoW out of the water and combined with TC you get alot of damage reduction done. And I am not sure how much HP an improved Blood Pact gives you but I doubt it's more than the (unimproved) Commanding Shout Warriors can do.

The only noteworthy debuff Warriors can't beat are CoT and CoS/CoE (CoR stacks with sunders but we rarely have the raid composition to drop that).

So yeah, while I know that Warlocks and Warriors usually don't compete on slots my point still stands. Warriors are the better debuffers/buffers.
 
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Joy

Joy

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True, but only need 1 warrior for most of that, his point is using more warlocks is always better than more mages (water + sheep).
 
A

Alanis

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Plx buff mages again .... I feel an invasion comming! :ph34r:
 

Ayu

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Aug 26, 2005
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Joyae said:
True, but only need 1 warrior for most of that, his point is using more warlocks is always better than more mages (water + sheep).

Noes. Need atleast another Warrior for Improved Demo (if you make the MT spec that he is gimping himself elsewhere) and another one or the same Warrior for BS because the MT is going to use CS anyway.

And not sure how you are going to buff Mages anyway, they already are high on threat (prolly not as much as the Lock/SPriest combo). Also there is the problem that Warlocks only do Number 1 spot DPS if a Shadowpriest is in the raid. But if you want to bring Mages to that level without outside help fo an SPriest that will complicate matters alot in PvP.
 

Zermo

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2005
784
Ayu said:
Joyae said:
They're not better, and warriors don't share the warlock spots usually.

For melee classes, Warriors debuffs/buffs are definitely better just counting DPS increase from Sunder Armor and BS. Improved Demo also blows CoW out of the water and combined with TC you get alot of damage reduction done. And I am not sure how much HP an improved Blood Pact gives you but I doubt it's more than the (unimproved) Commanding Shout Warriors can do.

The only noteworthy debuff Warriors can't beat are CoT and CoS/CoE (CoR stacks with sunders but we rarely have the raid composition to drop that).

So yeah, while I know that Warlocks and Warriors usually don't compete on slots my point still stands. Warriors are the better debuffers/buffers.

Eh?

Point by point:

It's not Demo shout versus CoW, no one, repeat, NO ONE in their right mind occupies a debuff slot with CoW, it's horrible in every single way, even stoneskin totem is better. HOWEVER, Shadow Embrace (talent, 20 points in affliction) is applied to a to a target when it's affected by a curse or a dot by said lock, now, I don't know how much Demo shout debuffs, but I'll wager you it's not bigger than a 5% damage reduction on your average boss, in fact I bet Gruul would extremly beg to differ :p

TC is the best debuff on a melee boss in the game, handsdown (assuming it ain't immune), agree.

BS versus CoE/CoS depends on raid setup, but CoE/CoS has a practical use in that you don't need to arrange group setup differently in any way so that all can use the debuff, which can be a problem at times. (by the by, they'll probably add Nature damage to CoE soon (eventually), which means BOOMKIN and Elemental shamans will be able to compete, adding yet more uttility to Warlocks).

I looked up the casual numbers and CS does win hands down, but it's also a matter of convinience, BP only needs the lock to summon the imp then place him at a spot that seems sensible while CS requires well - small amount of concentration and everyone being close by.

You could argue against Sunder Armor versus a lock debuff but facing facts we all know that only a tank will be using Sunder Armor, if a Warrior isn't tanking and the sundering is needed from a DPS Warr, I'd wager Expose Armor is better from Rogues still (talented), which would lead to a whole different discussion, but my point being that Warriors wouldn't dominate this one.

Overall with all the options, I'd take a Warlock over a Warrior any day.
 

Ayu

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Aelin said:
Eh?

Point by point:

It's not Demo shout versus CoW, no one, repeat, NO ONE in their right mind occupies a debuff slot with CoW, it's horrible in every single way, even stoneskin totem is better. HOWEVER, Shadow Embrace (talent, 20 points in affliction) is applied to a to a target when it's affected by a curse or a dot by said lock, now, I don't know how much Demo shout debuffs, but I'll wager you it's not bigger than a 5% damage reduction on your average boss, in fact I bet Gruul would extremly beg to differ :p

No, just no. Unimproved Demo Shout is around 15% damage reduction at 300 AP reduced. CoW is 350 AP. Improved Demo is 420 AP. Wanna tell me again how "noone in their right mind" would use CoW? The comparison to Stoneskin is amusing at best. AFAIK it still is applied before Armor reduction so yeah. Even if it wasn't, it doesn't even get close to Demo/CoW.
CoW is powerful but Improved Demo is even better.

Aelin said:
TC is the best debuff on a melee boss in the game, handsdown (assuming it ain't immune), agree.

That award goes to Demo Shout already. TC is extremely nice but it won't slow down instant skills like the Hurtful Strikes or Arcing Smash so it is slightly inferior to Demo.

Aelin said:
BS versus CoE/CoS depends on raid setup, but CoE/CoS has a practical use in that you don't need to arrange group setup differently in any way so that all can use the debuff, which can be a problem at times. (by the by, they'll probably add Nature damage to CoE soon (eventually), which means BOOMKIN and Elemental shamans will be able to compete, adding yet more uttility to Warlocks).

Can't add much here. The advantages/disadvantages are obvious. Party buffs vs raid debuffs. But you also have to consider Sunder Armor here which is a raid wide debuff.

Aelin said:
I looked up the casual numbers and CS does win hands down, but it's also a matter of convinience, BP only needs the lock to summon the imp then place him at a spot that seems sensible while CS requires well - small amount of concentration and everyone being close by.

The imp is out of range of the MT more often than CS is not buffed. :p

Aelin said:
You could argue against Sunder Armor versus a lock debuff but facing facts we all know that only a tank will be using Sunder Armor, if a Warrior isn't tanking and the sundering is needed from a DPS Warr, I'd wager Expose Armor is better from Rogues still (talented), which would lead to a whole different discussion, but my point being that Warriors wouldn't dominate this one.

Is speccing Imp EA even worth it? The DPS Warrior loses nothing if he applies 5 Sunder stacks. Yeah, I said nothing. Not even DPS. Why? Because starting with Sunders in Zerker stance is actually less aggro than starting his normal DPS cycle which means he has to hold back less and gains a DPS boost later on from his own Sunder stacks.

Aelin said:
Overall with all the options, I'd take a Warlock over a Warrior any day.

Well, the point wasn't who you'd bring over another, it was about the power of their debuffs/buffs and I think Warriors are better at that.
 

Hom

Member
Aug 30, 2005
843
No, just no. Unimproved Demo Shout is around 15% damage reduction at 300 AP reduced. CoW is 350 AP. Improved Demo is 420 AP. Wanna tell me again how "noone in their right mind" would use CoW? The comparison to Stoneskin is amusing at best. AFAIK it still is applied before Armor reduction so yeah. Even if it wasn't, it doesn't even get close to Demo/CoW.
CoW is powerful but Improved Demo is even better.

Isnt Improved CoW also 420 AP? And less of an outlay for a lock speccing into affliction.

Oh and that first post is so utterley pointless. A lock complaining about being first on the dmg meters, so mages should be buffed. What a crock of shit. The magical "Holy trinity" doesnt exist anymore in this game and comments like "mages cant do dmg on Alar" is fucking hilarious. He should remember the warlock problem in naxx and how shit locks were on patchwerk.

"I've played my lock for a year and I'm bored cause im soooo leet and top the meters and stuff". Fuckoff.
 

Galatea

Member
Oct 28, 2005
2,095
Gink said:
Let's talk about sex, baby!

(God i hope im not the only one old enough to remember that song) :G

/pat

unfortunately, you are not the only one old enough to remember it :unsure:
 
A

Alanis

Guest
Btw Hooooom..... I dont really have Imp. CoW ...... I just pretend to have it and apply my normal unl33t CoW and hope you feel a bit safer :shy:

(But yes - imp. CoW = 420)
 

Hom

Member
Aug 30, 2005
843
I just checked your armory talents and realised you lied to me....

....wtf !

I expect some serious lickage as compensation.

:blow:
 

Ayu

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Aug 26, 2005
15,083
Hom said:
I just checked your armory talents and realised you lied to me....

....wtf !

I expect some serious lickage as compensation.

:blow:

Eh lol, you never knew? Oo

Oh man :p
 

Zermo

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2005
784
Ayu said:
No, just no. Unimproved Demo Shout is around 15% damage reduction at 300 AP reduced. CoW is 350 AP. Improved Demo is 420 AP. Wanna tell me again how "noone in their right mind" would use CoW? The comparison to Stoneskin is amusing at best. AFAIK it still is applied before Armor reduction so yeah. Even if it wasn't, it doesn't even get close to Demo/CoW.
CoW is powerful but Improved Demo is even better.

Given the fact that some bosses get set AP, and some just get a set frame of how hard they can hit (Pre TBC at least, I haven't bothered going into it further since release admittingly :shy: ), given that fact, Demo Shout and Shadow Embrace is tied depending on which boss it is, I guess.

Didn't know they had changed CoW, my bad, thought it was still around 44 damage reduction or so :p

That award goes to Demo Shout already. TC is extremely nice but it won't slow down instant skills like the Hurtful Strikes or Arcing Smash so it is slightly inferior to Demo.

Wasn't thinking of instants so you're right in that respect, however I'd still say that reducing the boss' attack speed by 10% is godly

Is speccing Imp EA even worth it? The DPS Warrior loses nothing if he applies 5 Sunder stacks. Yeah, I said nothing. Not even DPS. Why? Because starting with Sunders in Zerker stance is actually less aggro than starting his normal DPS cycle which means he has to hold back less and gains a DPS boost later on from his own Sunder stacks.

Well (Rogues are very welcome to correct me on this) I'd say you'd sacrifice two points in Lethality less your Mutilate specced (And since no one seem to like 41/20/0 in our raids that's not very relevant), you'd lose some damage on crits for overall extra performance for the meleers if you went with Rogues or you'd have one Warrior gaining less aggro, comes down to that basicly.

Well, the point wasn't who you'd bring over another, it was about the power of their debuffs/buffs and I think Warriors are better at that.

I'll settle for a tie if you will; you only need one warrior (Excluding BS shouts in melee groups obv) to apply before mentioned (de)buffs but 4 locks (CoR, CoE, CoS, CoW), meaning you get more bang for the buck going with the warrior, but after the first one another lock will be more useful, plus they have Soul Shatter as opposed to Fury aggro whores.... GINK :p